Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 41 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 69 (“Jon”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 69: Jon
What Happens
Jon pleads his case to Queen Selyse re: the Hardhome refugees, but she is uninterested in their fate, and declares him a fool for his intention to lead the expedition to rescue them. She brings in the “true wildling king,” Gerrick Kingsblood, and declares that he will marry his daughters to her knights. She has also decided that Val will marry Ser Patrek. Jon makes a half-hearted attempt to explain to her how badly that will go, but Selyse dismisses him, and he leaves.
Melisandre waylays him and asks where his wolf is; Jon tells her that he must keep Ghost penned up as long as Borroq and his boar are around, for one of them would surely kill the other if allowed. Melisandre tells him that she has seen that all his ships are lost, and urges him to cancel the Hardhome expedition. Jon points out all the times she’s been wrong about what she sees. Melisandre tells him all his questions will be answered, and that he should come to her once they are. She says that she is his only hope. “A fool’s hope,” Jon tells her, and walks away.
Jon ponders the difficult logistics of his plan. At his chambers, he finds Ghost highly agitated and threatening even to him, and the crow also seems perturbed. He meets with Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck, but more and more they have been balking at any of his suggestions concerning integrating the wildlings into their projects. Jon concludes that talking to them is pointless, and dismisses them. Before they go he orders them to move the four living prisoners in the ice cells to a warmer prison, but to leave the (as yet non-reanimated) corpses.
Tormund Giantsbane arrives, with rather fewer men than he had promised. He pronounces Gerrick Kingsblood “King o’ My Hairy Butt Crack.” Their discussion of the expedition is interrupted by Clydas, who is shaking as he hands Jon a letter addressed simply to “Bastard.” It’s from Ramsay Bolton, who claims that he has killed the “false king” and all his friends, and taken his magic sword. He reveals that he knows Mance Rayder’s true identity, and claims that he has him in a cage, cloaked with “the skins of the six whores who came with him.” He demands his bride back, along with Selyse, Shireen, Melisandre, Val and her son, and Reek. He claims he will leave the Watch be if Jon complies, but if he does not, then Ramsay will “cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.”
Jon reads it to Tormund, and comments that Melisandre had seen it coming. Tormund suggests that it could be all lies, but Jon knows that at least some of it must be true. Jon considers what he is about to do, and knows it to be treason. Then he thinks of his brothers and sisters, and tells Tormund that he is changing the plan. After conferring, he goes to Shieldhall, forcing Ghost to stay behind. The members of the Hardhome expedition are there, and Jon sees that the wildlings outnumber the crows five to one. Jon tells them that he had planned to lead the expedition to Hardhome himself, but that he will be riding south instead. Then he reads them Bolton’s letter, and the hall explodes in fury.
Jon reminds them that the Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms, and says the brothers will go to Hardhome, and he will go to Winterfell alone, unless there is anyone who wishes to go with him. The wildlings roar their assent, and Jon does not care that Marsh and Yarwyck and the rest of the brothers are leaving. He leaves to go see Selyse, resolving to speak to Melisandre afterward, but then there is a scream from Hardin’s Tower, and Jon runs there to find the giant Wun Wun bleeding from sword wounds and beating the corpse of Ser Patrek to a bloody pulp. The crowd grows quickly, and Jon shouts for Leathers to try and talk the giant down before someone tries to get retribution. Then Wick Whittlestick slashes at Jon’s neck with a knife. Jon avoids the cut, and asks why. Wick answers, “for the Watch,” and slashes at him again.
Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.
Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.
Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…
Commentary
GOD
FUCKING
DAMN IT.
I. I am just.
I… no, hang on.
*stands among wreckage, panting*
I am… a little upset right now.
Yes.
A little.
Et tu, Marte? Seriously, et fuckin’ tu?
I will go away right now, and come back later.
And now that it is later: Well, I suppose it was inevitable. We couldn’t have an entire book go by without killing off a Stark skirting so dangerously close to Hero territory! That’s just crazy talk!
Do you suppose there’s an award for Most Assassinated Family in Westeros? Because I feel like we’ve got a contender for the crown. PUN INFUCKINGTENDED.
UGH.
But, it’s not like this mutiny wasn’t telegraphed with great obviosity throughout this entire storyline. Hell, Melisandre pretty much straight up told him it was going to happen. For my part, I’ve been dreading the likelihood of a Julius Caesar moment for Jon pretty much since the moment he got shanghaied into being Lord Commander. I was just hoping that it would be an aborted Julius Caesar moment. HAHAHA silly Leigh.
If he’d just had his damn direwolf with him…
And, so, okay. I have reread the ending of the chapter, and for the hell of it, I will point out that getting stabbed three-ish times in your central squishy bits is not impossible to survive. It is, admittedly, pretty damn unlikely, but it is possible.
So, given that, the potential scenarios are:
- Jon dies, and stays dead. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
- Jon almost dies, but gets excellent medical care and pulls through! Also, there are puppies! And rainbows! And winning lottery tickets! Yay!
- Jon almost dies, but Melisandre gets there and does horrible fire-related healing magic on him, like what Moqorro did with Captain Manpain, and Jon lives except with… er, volcano torso. Or something.
- Jon dies, but Melisandre gets there and does the zombie resurrection dance of her people, like what… um, Red Priest Whatshisguts did with Catelyn and Beric, and Jon “lives” except with gross death wounds and, probably, a whole bunch of anger management issues.
- Jon dies, and comes back a wight, and kills him a whole passel of fuckin’ traitor “brothers” before getting mowed down. I’m all for the murder part.
- Jon dies, and comes back a wight, but is somehow a nice wight. Or at least a comparatively non-homicidal one, like Mr. Coldhands who helped Bran become a tree.
- Jon dies, but sends his soul/consciousness/whatever to warg with Ghost like that wildling dude from the… Prologue? I think?, and then is… stuck being a wolf. Forever. But, on the upside, then probably kills him a whole passel of fuckin’ traitor “brothers” before either getting mowed down, or escaping to go be a wolf somewhere where everyone isn’t a bunch of braindead assholes.
Of these possible scenarios, the one that is the least likely is, naturally, #2. Of the others, really, I could see any one of them happening. All of them could reasonably be claimed to have been foreshadowed by prior events, and all of them suck to a greater or lesser degree (mostly a greater one), which in this series raises their likelihood of happening by a factor of ten.
Blarg.
So! One of my favorite characters in the whole series is probably at least mostly dead! Sure, great, no big deal. WHATEVS.
Yeah.
Okay, and then there was other stuff, blah blah Selyse is a moron, blee bloo where the hell did this Gerrick Kingsblood clown come from, did I miss a memo, yadda yadda Tormund Giantsbane is a Freudian wet dream.
As for Revoltin’ Bolton’s charming little screed, well. As Jon observed, there was at least some truth to his ranting, because he knew who Mance was, but that certainly doesn’t mean any of the rest of it is true. Of course, it also doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I think those sentences made sense. But if they didn’t, you know what I mean.
The one really interesting thing in the whole letter, however, is that Ramsay demands that Jon give him back both his bride and Theon/Reek. Because, since when does Jon have either of them? All the other people Ramsay demanded are in Jon’s possession, so to speak, or at least in his vicinity, but last we knew, Theon and Jeyne had just joined Stannis’s Army of Great Hypothermia and were nowhere near the Wall. So if Ramsay had really defeated and killed Stannis and all his supporters, why wouldn’t he have found Theon and Jeyne among them?
Well, maybe they left and/or escaped before the theoretical slaughter, but I still think it sheds at least a little doubt on Ramsay’s boast that he killed Stannis et al. We’ll see, I guess.
And screw you, Martin, for getting me all excited for a hot second that Jon was going to go take back Winterfell and kill Mr. Buffalo Bill On Steroids, because OMG, aaaaaaand then: stabbity.
Nor am I happy that I now have to utter the phrase “Jon should have listened to Melisandre,” but I must utter it, because I strongly suspect that if he had heeded her instruction to come to her once he got the letter, instead of going to drum up the troops, there is a distinct possibility that the stabbity might have been averted. Crap.
In fact you can probably have a fairly heated discussion over whether Jon brought the stabbity on himself, by not listening to Melisandre, by ignoring the brewing mutinousness among his men, and most of all by publicly declaring his intent to commit treason without setting up at least some protection (e.g., HIS GIANT FUCKING DIREWOLF) for himself first. And certainly there is a lot of merit to that argument.
But at the same time, I can’t really bring myself to fault Jon for practically any of the choices he made. Yeah, twenty-twenty hindsight says he should have listened to Melisandre, but Melly is and always has been shady as fuck, and if I didn’t trust her, how do I berate Jon for also failing to do so? And yeah, he should have figured out how to quell the unrest among the Watch, but I also cannot in conscience say that he shouldn’t have done the things that led to that unrest. Jon was acting to save thousands of lives that literally everyone else was happy to write off with a “good riddance,” and I can’t find it in me to say that he shouldn’t have done that, even knowing what it would lead to.
And yeah, I think the business in Shieldhall was a mistake, a hotheaded one, but I certainly don’t disagree with the intent, just the execution. That could have been accomplished in a much more devious and roundabout way, methinks, but I still think he should have done it.
The only real, tragic, terrible mistake I think Jon made was not having Ghost with him at all times, without exception. Jesus, just get a crossbow and threaten to shoot the fucking boar unless the other warg keeps him under wraps – and then do actually shoot it if you have to. Sheesh.
Well. Kind of a moot point now, isn’t it.
And now I have to make myself a liar, because ain’t no frickin’ way I am subjecting myself to Yet Another ASOIAF Climactic Chapter of No Doubt Mighty Rug-Yanking right now after this bullshit, so we are stopping here. In future I will remember to know better than to think I can predict how this thing is going to go.
Ergo, that’s our show! Come back for more puppies and rainbows and tax writeoffs next Thursday!
And know you why I want to stop reading this damned series. It’s easier to do when I’m not actually reading Martin’s prose though.
Damn it.
All in all, I think Leigh handled that chapter calmly and maturely…
Ahh Leigh, sorry gal, it’s a tough one. Well, I can tell you, the fandom is completely split, and you broadly covered all the bases of what could happen. I for one assume that Mel is undead in that Beric way, just much better preserved, so if she does the resurrection thing on Jon, she will perish, as Beric did, leaving an angsty Jon, not unlike a certain guy named Rand who also had a mysterious woman giving him all sorts of non clues to his future.
I think it’s important to note that Val doesn’t have a baby–her sister Dalla was Mance’s wife and died in childbirth. And the letter doesn’t call the baby Val’s son:
I want his little prince, the wildling babe.
When I read Ramsay’s letter, I thought of the Joker’s video threat in The Dark Knight, and that’s when it hit me: Ramsay is the Joker. He’s the same character in a different setting, with a different modus operandi and background – but he’s the same level of horrifying, classic villainy.
RE: Jon’s death – it’s possible, Leigh, that options 4 and 7 could be combined, meaning that Jon wouldn’t “lose” the parts of his mind like Beric did by preserving himself within Ghost until Mel can get to his body. In Mel’s POV chapter, there was one part involving visions, one of which was something a like a “boy/man whose face is changing into a wolf, then back”, so there’s what I and a lot of other fans think.
Brava! You have captured my feelings entirely, about this whole chapter. Though I persist in believing Jon isn’t dead, if only because Martin has taken so much care with his story and can’t possibly be about to abandon him now. Right? ::Sobs::
I hoped Jon would just warg Wun Wun and pop all their heads like zits between a thumb and finger.
If Jon dies but somehow comes out of this in some kind of human form, I think we can assume his watch has ended and he is no longer bound by his oath to the Watch.
About that letter …
Ramsay included quite a lot of details/demands/claims, any one of which could have blown his story if it had been a lie all along and if Jon had happened to know different facts. So is it all a big gamble to goad Jon into a mistake by punching his buttons, or is it true?
@7: Giants are a (mostly) sapient species, so warging one might be a bad, unethical idea. I lol’d at the idea of Jon taking vengeance that way, though.
From what I can tell, the fandom consensus is pretty strongly against Jon being dead-dead, as in gone-with-finality, but it’s pretty much split among the various options that you outline as to what will actually happen in the future.
I personally tend to think that most of the point of Martin giving us that prologue was to provide a bit of a monograph on warging and death, and hence that Ghost is going to be in some way a key component of what happens, but we’ll see. No spoilers! You’re in the same boat with the rest of us, now!
Also, I’m with you insofar as Jon was doing the right thing (and has been trying to do it pretty much throughout the book); I don’t have a lot of patience with the naysayers who say Jon (and for that matter, Dany-they’re in some ways on parallel journeys this book) is boring and stupid this book. He’s got a strategic vision that approaches the statesmanlike, and he’s not stupid, it’s just that dragging hidebound institutions out of well-worn ruts is HARD.
Also also, yes, maybe winding the troops up in the Shield Hall was a tactical error, but maybe not. It clearly precipitated the traditionalists’ decision to take their shot, but consider that motivating/inspiring a body of men to follow you into a big bloody battle may well require that kind of showmanship occasionally. You balance your risks and hope you can ride the tiger, I guess.
Yeah, I too am of the opinion this won’t stick.
Since even Leah doubts that Jon is actually dead if feel that GRRM did not really want most people to believe he is truly dead after all the death fake-outs but instead wants us to guess how he will come back. Jon warging to Ghost and then being resurrected by Melisadre seems to be the most common theory and I think I agree with it. Jon probably will stay dead for a while however, or he is bought back rather soon but it will take a long time for us to learn from it.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, Leigh, but I’ve been waiting years for your reaction to this chapter, and it did not disappoint. I was listening to the book on audio the first time around, and I had to rewind because I was convinced I couldn’t have heard that part right. You do an excellent job of summarizing the various options going forward.
Hang in there. You’re almost through. Then you’ll be just like the rest of us.
The sad thing is, Jon is trying to do the right thing, with so many people stuck in the past, but here’s the thing. He should trust Mel’s visions more than he does. Mel saw a girl on a horse, okay she was wrong about who it was, but the vision itself was clear. She told Jon, none of his ships would return, before he sent them, that’s not a vision with wiggle room, like if she said one ship will return and chose the wrong one, she said it was doomed from the start. He should question her on visions with wiggle room that aren’t clear, but oh ya, that expedition is doomed is not one of those.
Also, there’s no reason to assume the expedition to Hardhome will go any better than Mormonts ranging did, and he wasn’t nearly so far up, now he didn’t know to have fires all around him at all times, but maybe the Others are more focused on the Night’s Watch than on the wildlings.
How many characters have we seen fade to black only to have survived or come back?
Obviously Bran is warging into the Lord Commander’s raven and sees what happens and uses his amazing power to nudge Jon into Ghost. (direct line of sight not needed for warging with family direwolves as shown by Ayra across the sea from Nymeria the Night Wolf)
Using this living but non bodied life Ghost/Jon will escape and travel to Bran in the cave of wonders where Bran will show him the dragons of Mereen. Jon will warg into a dragon and live forever! Burnanating all enemies and becoming best friends with Tyrion!
And rainbows.
At this point most people threw the book across the room or bought a new Kindle as it shattered against the wall. Ghost being tied up was similar to Robb’s Direwolf being constrained during the Red Wedding so we should have guessed what was going to happen. Mater Frakking George R.R. Martin.
I’m hoping that Mel is going to resurrect Jon as Catelyn was resurrected earlier. Part of me suspects he is going to be the New Night’s King. A Wight not under the control of the Others like the one of legend. Would be cool if the Female Ice Wight of Legend showed up.
More likely Jon Snow really is Azor Ahai. Mel will resurrect him. He will renounce the Night’s Watch and take the Surname Stark. The Boy Jon Snow is Dead, the Man Jon Stark Arises.
R.I.P. 998th Commander of the Night’s Watch.
The hair, the hair!
@5: Damn my use of a dangling modifier in the first sentence of the second paragraph…
I was going to say I’m sorry for this chapter, but…I’m not sorry at all. That was GLORIOUS! I’m sorry, but when Leigh loses it, it elevates simple anger and frustration into an art form. I literally burst out laughing at my desk, then continued cackling wildly throughout the recap. I am certain that security is on its way even now to escort me from the building. And I don’t. even. care. Because it is WONDERFUL.
I think the table flipping conveyor belt was my favorite, but then honestly how does one choose? Ah, Leigh. You bring joy to my soul. Especially since my dark, bitter soul has had YEARS to marinate in the evil juices of this chapter, filling me with a mighty rage. I recommend you for every award ever for this recap. Pulitzer. Nobel. All of ’em.
Best recap ever.
@15 well let’s see there’s Cat, and uh… have I missed any?
ok, have I missed any THAT WE KNOW FOR SURE?
I agree with the meereeneseblot (don’t read that yet Leigh) that Jon kind of brought the Bolton letter on himself. As the blog says, his whole struggle this book has been to differentiate between his urge to do heroic things (not for vanity) and the needs of the Watch.
Overall the lesson the blot highlights is that being heroic (again, not the same thing as trying to be a hero) does not make someone a good leader; in fact if this urge to do the right thing is not controlled, it can lead to disaster. It’s brilliant because Jon keeps doing things that we totally think he should do (well except for the leaving behind Ghost and rallying all the Wildlings into a posse of rescue-vengeance maybe) so we forget until this chapter, until Jon goes too far, that some of Jon’s choices that sounded rightous at the time were actually incredibly risky for the Watch.
Why would a Night’s Watch Lord Commander publicly imprison a key supporter of the most powerful family in the North (yes uncle Karstark was horrible and disgusting and yes the marriage of Alys and the Magnar was lovely, but what does it look like Jon is doing if you’re a Bolton)? Why would the Lord Commander send a former King Beyond the Wall to take away the key to Northern legitimacy from the currently most powerful family in North? Why did Martin write in the preceding chapter, as you noticed Leigh, that “The hero never dies”? Then again, if Jon had resisted his heroic tendencies, why would we get so flipping angry when they stabbed him?
Jon was a terrible leader. One of the most annoying things about GRRM is that he seems to think anybody who is a decent person simply must be a terrible leader (because the negative implication is that only a terrible person can be a good leader, so putting terrible people in power is ok).
What’s that 3rd animated gif from? That’s an impressive table-flip.
@24: Thor.
No comment. Just cackling madly at your delicious tantrum.
Jon, whether he comes back or not, is no longer bound by his oath. One of the traitors becomes 999th Lord Commander. Sam returns to bring justice and knowledge of how to defeat the Others, as he rises to Sam the Slayer, Thousandth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.
Or that’s my theory, anyway.
Leigh – sorry for the pain. But like many others, your reaction is so perfect. And part of why we come back.
@15: Well, this really shows GRRM’s background as a TV writer. Thus – I don’t believe you anymore George!!!
I’m impressed with all the theories you compiled!
I always enjoy the angry Leigh posts lol.
I also wouldn’t mind Leigh watching the series if she’s interested. I kind of disagree with her reading the fan theories yet, and if she does I think it’s a lot easier to read them on Reddit than on Westeros.org. I personally think a reread would be in order before getting into all that, maybe a less drawn out reread than this original read, like 5-10 chapters at a time just to see what she can put together herself that she missed? I’m thinking that’s the only way that a reread would be completed before book 6 comes out (hopefully).
Of course maybe Leigh isn’t interested in doing a reread at all at this point (or ever), in which case maybe the next 2 short stories + the series (1-2 episodes per post) would last us until TWoW comes out. I think TWOIAF would be too daunting without a reread first, it’s too dry and easy to miss things unless you are very familiar with the histories/theories.
@17, If Jon is Azor Ahai, then what’s HIS burning sword?
@31, before or after he has sex with Mel?
Because if it’s after….
Looks like you got all the major theories covered. Now you can wait for the next book like the rest of us to find out which is true.
@31 If as theorized those resurrected by the Servants of the Lord of Light are Fire Wights, John has a nice Valyrian Steel Sword forged in Dragonfire called Longclaw and We may see it alight.. As seen on TV and not in the Books Valyrian Steel has the same effect on the Others as Dragonglass. Spoilers Whited out
@@@@@27 Sean Viver Aw yeah! One thousand comes with balloon drop and confetti cannons. Go, Sam!
@23
I don’t know if it’s so much that as that peace and compromise are hard and often require holding your nose in a way that really principled and/or passionate people have trouble getting behind. Dany was actually doing pretty well in Meereen before Drogon showed up, and she not only hated it, she hated herself for it. War is awful, as AFFC so lovingly showed us. So why do all these people choose it? Because peace fucking sucks also–or, at least the things you have to sacrifice for it do.
It’s worth noting that plenty of Martin’s terrible leaders are also godawful people–Cersei, Aerys, and if we want to go back through history half the Targs with Maegor the Cruel as a bright and shining example.
And even people you might think Martin’s characterizing as good leaders like Tywin are not so good in hindsight. Tywin’s body isn’t even in the ground before his children start tearing his legacy to shreds and everyone else gets to plotting against them, and Ramsay would immediately undo all of Roose’s, “a peaceful land, a quiet people,” if he had half a chance, but meanwhile supposedly terrible and naive rulers like Ned and even Robert are still inspiring loyalty after death.
I think what Martin is doing is a lot more nuanced. Leadership is complicated. Leading in battle is not only not the same thing as leading as king, but it’s not even necessarily the same thing as being good at leading right before the battle, as the Young Wolf or Robert vs. Stannis’ command from behind shows us. People thought Robert was the true steel and Stannis would bend before he broke, and maybe that was true in the Rebellion, but then Robert couldn’t bend to the demands of peace, and Stannis went and got a new god and a new adviser and a new lowborn Hand and new allies and a whole new front of war. (Which might make him a good leader, except that no one likes him, and, you know, the burning people at the stake thing.) Principle, even good principle, taken to a certain extreme makes it hard to make peace or maintain alliances as Robb and Jon and Dany showed us. Roose prefers peace and quiet to principle, but Tywin tells us that if you have no principle at all, people will turn their backs on you the moment you’re not able to frighten them anymore.
The qualities that make a good leader are complex and contradictory because leaders lead people, and people are complex and contradictory. Martin never shows us a leader without a serious flaw. Even the people who eschew leadership entirely and just want a leader to serve (like Brienne) get screwed. And I don’t know that Martin’s proposed any kind of solution (except perhaps Dany’s, to wash her hands of this whole “peace” business) so much as thrown up a counterpoint to the way the genre tends to handle the Anointed Chosen King. (And I’m very interested to see where this theme goes where Young Griff is concerned.) But it’s definitely not the case that good people make bad leaders and vice versa. All of Martin’s leaders have their own strengths and weaknesses.
@34,Tabby at 32 has got the right idea.
My first response to this chapter was similar to the Quentyn one right before it, basically “Oh damn, another relatively-decent young man got himself killed through a rash and pointless act and now things in his vicinity will get much worse than they already were. Ugh.” (Like everything else in the series that isn’t explicitly spelled out, it never occurred to me that he might not simply be dead before The Fandom revealed the possibility).
Honestly, I didn’t find Jon much more interesting than Quentyn at this point, and identified with him less. We just got to experience more interesting people and places through his POV. Like Dolorous Edd, and Mel, and Tormund with his impressive ability to turn his every utterance into a penis joke, and Patchface the most eloquent missionary the Drowned God ever had. Though I want them all to quit making fun of Selyse’s facial hair. I am also a hairy-faced woman and would like to think that I am not like her (but if I am, it is complete coincidence).
Gerris Drinkwater, Queen Selyse…when the jerks are the ones urging sensible action, you’re in trouble.
“Most Assassinated House in Westeros”? Good question. Now I’m trying to decide which of the aristocratic murders seen thus far qualify as “assassination.”
I liked the description of the Shield Hall’s former glory, with its litany of sigils emphasizing how men from every corner of the realm have served the Night’s Watch (and it’s fun to try naming all of the houses depicted)…until we’re told that those shields are long gone and Jon never actually saw them. Boo.
@15: Table-flipping conveyor belt? *looks again* Oh, that’s what that picture is. And now I’m cracking up.
@30: I don’t think Leigh has read the fan theories. She is writing what her thoughts are about the possible outcomes. She knows fantasy, thus it’s easy for her to pull up these ideas.
Going out to read fan theories before she is done with the book would be too dangerous for the “no spoiler” policy.
@27: For Sam’s sake, I hope not. He’d be happier as a Maester somewhere less murderful or at least less dreary.
Worst Cliffhanger Ever.
Geez, Jon, I know Maester Aemon told you to kill the boy, but I don’t think this is what he meant.
@34: I always thought of the shadow assassins as the inverse of the (cold) wights – the wights are created through killing (death) and the shadow assassins through procreation (life).
First comment on this reread. Reading 1-2 chapters must be a total b***h, yet you caught more than I did first time “round. Well done.
Potential Scenario #8 – Hark back to the first book, and what happened to our favorite horselord. Add warging. Mix well.
The note Jon receives is known to the fandom as the Pink Letter, due to the sealing wax. Note that the wax is smeared. Speculate freely.
Ser Patrek (sigil – blue stars on silver) was a character created as a result of a bet. GRRM is a NFL Giants fan. A friend of his named Patrick who was a Cowboys fan placed a bet with George over the result of a Giants-Cowboys game and won, and as a result was immortalized in the books by having a character representing him die a grisly death. GRRM has auctioned off for one of his favorite charities three similar deaths for the next book.
Some of the theories being talked about here are not things Leigh has brought up and considered, and hence they’re things she specifically said she doesn’t want discussed because she wants to come to them on her own.
Why did Jon Snow walk into the Rolex store?
A: For the watch.
OK, bad jokes aside, I’ve been following this blog as a silent lurker for a little over a year now (since I started reading this series myself), and I have to say that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading what you (Leigh) have to say from the perspective of a first-time reader. It has to have taken remarkable perseverance to go through this series 1-2 chapters at a time for the past (what is it now…4 years?). Thank you for sticking with it.
I, too, have been eagerly awaiting your reaction to this chapter. Great job on not only expressing the initial table-flipping reactions of a lot of readers the first time they read this chapter, but also on the analysis re: what all this means for Jon from here on out.
To the commentators – it’s been great to read through the comments sections and to pick up on theories, etc, that I had not originally picked up on when I read through ASOIAF. I look forward to reading more of your insight and hopefully contributing a few thoughts myself.
I always kind of wondered what Marsh’s plan is – assuming Jon stays dead.
Sounds like there are way too many armed wildlings south of the Wall to disarm, attack, or expel. If Marsh gains control of the Night’s Watch with that plan in mind, it would be effectively destroyed in that battle before the Others ever come south in force.
And would Stannis (assuming her survives), tolerate that kind of betrayal – particularly when a bunch of them converted to worshiping R’hllor? As it is, if Stannis returns victorious, he might get very pissed with Jon’s assassination and decide to hang the traitors.
Maybe something else is going on and the traitors have a deal with the Boltons.
Option 8: Jon is Azor Ahai reborn. Fate and Prophecy will resurrect him.
I’m wondering how Leigh managed to avoid online reactions to HBO’s version of this scene, but given her apparent surprise, she managed it. Well done.
Don’t worry, Leigh, Jon’s not dead. I saw him just the other day at Walmart. He’d put on a few pounds and was wearing a rhinestone jumpsuit, but I recognized him by his sideburns.
Leigh- Not a single person in the history of ever believed you were doing 2 chapters this week. Then again, WE all knew what was coming, and could only debate just how extensive your meltdown would be. It went pretty much as expected, I would say. By which I mean, your reaction was AWESOME!
Of the proposed fates that await Jon, I think it’s fairly likely that he will be revived by Melisandre, since she already feels that he is important. So far we only know of Thoros having successfully revived people using the power of R’hillor, but since Thoros was self-admittedly a bad priest without much faith, and Melly appears to have LOTS of faith and power, it seems natural for her to be able to “heal” Jon in the same way… The only question is whether Jon will be in Ghost warg limbo before she brings him back…
First off, congrats on figuring out all the possibilities that the fanbase has been able to come up with re: Jon’s fate, and also seeing the glaring problem with the Pink Letter right away (demanding Sansa and Theon).
I will simply add the one fact that I love to bring up here, for obvious historical reasons: Julius Caesar suffered no fatal wounds. He died of blood loss.
Well, Leigh, I’ve been waiting for this part ever since I read your Red Wedding reaction and you didn’t disappoint.
Testing, testing, one, two, three *taps microphone*
Just seeing if this comment appears before I take the time to write a real comment that will most likely be swallowed up and lost in the ether like too many of my other comments on Tor since the “upgrade”. I really kinda hate this new Tor.
Heh, looks like its working for the moment. =)
So, one of the great things that GRRM does with Jon’s story is using the boar as a red herring so that we don’t notice the similarities between how Ghost is acting here and the way that Greywind was acting right before the Red Wedding. Also notice that Ghost is freaking out before Jon even receives the Pink Letter.
@39
I accidentally replied on the wrong thread, I was meaning to reply to anthonypero’s post last week, in which he suggested that Leigh be introduced to fan theories through Westeros after her initial read is completed. Of course she shouldn’t read the fan theories now, in fact I don’t think they should be read until after a reread :)
I believe that the stabbings were not meant to kill Jon. Rather, they were meant to temporarily incapacitate him so that Jon could not lead the assault south against Ramsey. The statements made by those who stabbed Jon do not sound like statements made by people trying to kill somebody. Until the next book tells us readers that these people’s goal were to kill Jon, I will stick with my theory. If I am wrong (and these men were really trying to kill Jon), then he will somehow be resurrected. I refuse to believe that Jon is as dead as Rob was after the Red Wedding and Joffrey after the Purple Wedding.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
I agree that Jon should had had Ghost with him at all times, and that his decisions, given his morality, couldn’t have been different, but I think he made other fatal mistake besides locking his wolf: he send his friends away and surrounded himself with enemies. If he had sent Bowen Marsh and the other ringleaders away instead of sending Grenn, Pip, Toad, Dolorous Edd and other people who were loyal to him, maybe the outcome would have been different. The only one who was sent away that couldn’t have been replaced was Sam.
AndrewHB, I feel that since in medieval times any kind of stabbing wound could be fatal because of infections, one person slashed his neck and Jon would have executed everyone who participated if he had survived is really unlikely they were not trying to kill him.
Really? You think Jon’s only mistake was not having his direwolf? How about trying to kidnap Ramsay’s wife? How about hypocritically ordering his men to make peace with the wildlings, some of whom are as bad as Ramsay, but refusing to make peace himself with the Boltons? How about breaking both his oaths to the Night’s Watch (taking part in politics) and his promises (not taking the wildlings south)? Don’t people realise that by sending Tormund to Hardhome with an army and his own army to Winterfell, he’s leaving the Wall vulnerable?
As for the “keeping his wolf near him” part: Bowen Marsh and the others have something called crossbows. Hell, even you mention them in your post.
@50 – Actually, I did, because that’s what Leigh said she’d do, and when the Red Wedding happened, Leigh blogged the Arya chapter immediately after it, and we only got one chapter the previous week.
@51: If the Pink Letter was actually written by Ramsay, he means “Arya,” not Sansa. (The letter only specified “my bride,” but his bride is supposed to be Arya.) The Boltons would be particularly concerned about “Arya” and Theon ending up with Jon, who knows them both, because Jon could reveal the lie that the Boltons had perpetrated on the Stark bannermen. Theon might even tell Jon that Bran and Rickon are still alive, which would really wreck the Boltons’ plan.
I do not think that you can legitimately blame Jon for getting involved in politics, as there is no way that he could avoid doing so. For example in the Arnolf Karstark situation, he can either warn Stannis or withhold the information meaning that his army will be destroyed. Both of these would be political actions, favouring one side or the other with no apolitical middle-ground possible.
What’s the point of having a powerful magical beast if you’re going to keep it locked away? At least Dany had a better excuse – who cares about some wild boar anyway?
I’m surprised you didn’t quote the whole letter. I’ve overanalyzed this thing many times in the past few years. I’ve also read many interpretations and opinions about it. I’m still confused. The only certainty I have is that we shouldn’t guess the sender or his intentions based on Jon’s actions after he read it. The letter itself should provide all the clues we need.
And some serious shit is about to go down at the Wall. Most of the wildlings there were loyal to Jon personally, and this chapter was rather clear about the ratio of wildlings to crows: 5 to 1.
If Jon doesn’t come back right away, the Night’s Watch is finished. And if he does, he’ll probably GTFO there really fast. With an army of wildlings. Hopefully to Winterfell.
The interesting thing is that Jon will probably “come back wrong” or at least with a different disposition. I foresee more action and less deliberation. And he’ll probably be drinking Melisandre’s hot red kool-aid now. (Wow, that sounded weird)
Either way, Now His Watch Is Ended.
Like many others said, I’ve been waiting for you to hit this chapter since you started the read. Bravo, and bravo. All of my tables are yours to flip.
@36 thank you for that thoughtful and correct assessment. The Martian hate that this read has gets old though the anger is funny. What you said is exactly what I expect he is doing only I would add that a leader who considers everyone to be good and tries to lead acting like everyone is good will end up doing badly because people are not. Taking American history as an example Carter is a wonderful moral person who I hope to live like, but he was a terrible president. Clinton was morally smarmy but a very effective leader and president. It doesn’t always work this way of course but it often does.
George here is also I think focusing on the different definitions of honor. To modern eyes much of what he did is honorable since honorable now means “good” but to people in his society he has become completely dishonorable as he has broken his vows. In a culture that works on honor your vow is the most important thing you can give and breaking your vow would break the whole cultural system. Thus why people react to it so strongly. When honor and vows are all that keep people together anything that would make breaking them ok leads to chaos.
All that said. Yeah this was a great read and yes none of us expected you to get to two chapters this week. I laughed when you said last week you were going to do two this week actually but then yes I knew what was coming.
To those of you commenting that Jon broke his vows by getting involved in the politics of the seven kingdoms, I suggest you go back and look at the vow that the NW takes. No where in the vow does it say that the NW shall take no place in the politics of the realm. And honestly, how could any LCC of the NW stay out of politics altogether.
Also, what is Jon supposed to do? He can’t meet Ramsey ‘ demands, he doesn’t even have Reek or FArya with him. Is he supposed to just let Ramsey March up to castle black and kill him?
Also also, I don’t think any of the wildlings are as bad as Ramsey.
Ok. I loved the reaction. We we all here this week for the reaction! but did anyone notice that the really cool ascii graphic at the bottom…had tables going in the opposite direction of the conveyor? of all the things to catch on, I get this is small, but i have to say it is kind of funny…
Why can’t everything in the letter be true. Theon “saved” the bride once, why couldn’t he have done it again? Asha was around, so no reason the Greyjoys and Jeyne can’t be running around the country side. First time reading it, I assumed it was all true, repeated readings, I think moreso.
@65 the vows state you give up all family connections which as the family connections are where the involvement in politics comes from yes that is what it means. He can defend himself from Ramesy if he attacks the wall as that would be defending the wall but going down to directly attack him for revenge yes that breaks his vows.
Something that recently occurred to me: part of the Pink Letter demands that Melisandre be handed over to Ramsay. I am all in favor of this happening, since any attempt to fuck (with) Mel would likely result in Ramsay’s death by shadow assassin. “The Ransom of Red Woman”, as O. Henry would have put it.
It’s difficult for me to criticize the people who stabbed Jon when I consider that Jon was utterly committed to sending much of the Watch to Hardhome on what by all accounts was a suicide mission. Five of the eleven ships were lost, the others were damaged, the storms made a sea escape impossible, the Wildlings were already starving, wights / Others were closing in, and that was when Pyke sent his letter. By the time any rescue attempt got there, chances are almost everyone would be dead, and the rescuers would be walking straight into an area full of enemies, trying to escort nearly dead Wildlings on a long march back while they’re attacked by wights. Jon wanted to send anywhere from five hundred to a thousand Watch members on this hopeless mission, forcing them to take food for thousands of people and the supplies needed to transport it (animals, carts) knowing that they didn’t have enough food to last winter as it was. From the perspective of the stabbers, Jon was like an merciless WWI general ordering his troops to run straight into machine gun fire. Seriously, what the heck is so ‘moral’ about sending the men under your command into near certain death?
Well, I’m with you on the table flipping. And I’m not sure I’ll read anymore of this series if Jon doesn’t come back in some form.
I’m going with: He is warged into Ghost temporarily, and Mel resurrects his body, where upon he wargs back, leaves the Watch, and becomes Azor Ahai. Or Jon Stark. Meantime while he’s in Ghost, he meets Bran, and learns about Dany and dragons, and who he really is….. and his future. And rainbows.
So I watch Game of Thrones with french subtitles (deal with it).
When that scene happened and people started yelling “For the Watch” at Jon, the subtitle read “Pour la montre”. Which means for the watch, except the watch that you can wear around your wrist. Watch as in “The night’s watch” would have been “Pour la garde”.
It is now completely impossible for me to take this scene seriously. Any of it.
How about what happens to the Nights Watch after stabbing Jon? He points out that the Wildlings out number the Watch 5 to 1. Jon is certainly an ally at this point. Wildlings are going to go crazy!
@72
Have you seen the youtube video, “For the Watch (mmm Watcha Say)”? It’s pretty great.
The giant was probably injured to lure Jon out.
There are too many fake cliffhangers in this book. Just because Quentin actually died doesn’t make the fake deaths more believable. There are too many ways for Jon to come back, the only question is which one it will be.
@65 It’s Jon’s fault that Ramsay is pissed at the Night’s Watch. He tried to kidnap FArya and he imprisoned Bolton’s men. By putting all his eggs in the Stannis basket and refusing to even think of a Bolton victory, he has doomed the Wall.
But, as you, say, Jon was a dead man the moment the letter arrived. Even if he had all the people Ramsay says, and handed them over him, Ramsay could still kill him, as he did in Moat Caitlin. According to the Night’s Watch “code of conduct”, ” letting Ramsey March up to castle black and kill him” is pretty much the only solution. At least that way there’s a chance he would spare the Night’s Watch. Facing Ramsay with a wildling army is a suicide mission anyway. There was no way that Jon could have beaten the Northern army with some wildlings in leather armor.
Regarding the wildlings, the Weeper is a sadic who plucks out people’s eyes for fun and who,according to Yarwyck “only knows rape and murder”; Varamyr is an animal abuser with his own “First Night” tradition; and half of Ygon’s 18 wives were stolen on raids.
51: Julius Caesar suffered no fatal wounds. He died of blood loss.
I must admit this has me puzzled. If I suffer a wound that causes me to lose so much blood that I die, isn’t that a fatal wound? I mean, how else do you think people normally die from being stabbed, if not from blood loss?
No immediately fatal wounds? Correct. No eventually fatal wounds? Incorrect.
Great post Leigh and great comments.
I’m pretty much in the camp of those who think Jon was a terrible leader. I feel like every decision he made was the wrong one, similar to Dany. His reputation for being “good” is so ironic to me because he does awful things, but because we read it from his perspective (and we’ve already been saturated with his morals) that we think they are the “good” decisions. But frankly I don’t see how instigating war and sending the men under your command out to die trying to save people who are a) likely to be dead anyway and b) will still hate you and cause further dissent are not “good” acts. To me his moral obligation should be to the people under his command, and to the realm (as his oath states). I don’t mind his attempt at trying to change people’s perspective and opinions, but he should still do that within reason and within his scope as a leader, not by arm twisting. Just because he *thinks* he’s a better person morally doesn’t automatically make it so, and doesn’t mean he should be able to force people to agree with him.
But anyway, Jon is another example of honor above reason, so much like Ned.
And I didn’t think for a second he was actually-dead. He’s only mostly-dead (which means he’s slightly-alive). I definitely see warging into Ghost, staying there a bit until Mel resurrects him because of course. Why else would she be at the Wall? And there’s sooooo many recent hints from her visions that point to Jon being AA that I just don’t think there’s any question.
Re: Mel resurrecting Jon: sorry I lost the reference but someone mentioned that Mel might have to die to rez Jon, and I honestly hadn’t considered that. It would be interesting. Didn’t Azor Ahai have to plunge the sword into his wife to make it burn? If so it would be an interesting parallel, and maybe that’s how Jon gets his sword (Mel sacrificing herself for it, since she would now know who the real Azor Ahai is?).
@@@@@59. CaptainTheo
Well, there are very few chapters left and the next book is like two years away still, so, I am hoping Leigh does some form of reread.
I think it’s interesting to speculate what would happen if Ned had become Lord Commander, which surely would have happened had everything worked the way Varys wanted and Ned gone to the Watch.
It is not like we knew Ned as well as we know Jon, but here’s the thing, Jon is still a teenager, maybe 20 by the end of the book. He does not have…the gravitas or whatever, to issue such edicts, does not have the trust that Ned would have had. Ned may not have caved to Stannis, especially with his daughters held by the Lannisters, but I think Stannis wouldn’t have tried pushing him around as much as he goads Jon either.
If it was Ned, does he get stabbed at the end of the book?
If Azor Ahai needs a sacrifice, Jon could be the sacrifice himself.
I think some of Jon’s decisions were very smart. His war is against the Others, and the Others haven’t shown themselves very much. The only one they have seem was the one Sam killed with dragonglass. So they don’t know much about how many Others there are, but they do know that the main way the Others attack people is using wights, zombified living beings. And most of the wights used on attacks are human (there were some bears, but it’s safe to assume that humans will be used mainly to attack). So each human he has south of the Wall will be one more human to defend it and one less wight to attack it. Taking the wildlings south is a very important thing, much better than killing them would be, which would just amplify the Wight Army. Even if all the wildlings were to be drowned, they would still come back, according to Pyke’s letter (dead things at sea).
Wildlings south of the Wall also help man the Wall. Jon saw how a ragtag army of Night’s Watch was able to repell a far larger number of wildlings, by manning the wall. So he wants to man all the forts, and needs people to do so. The 7 kingdoms aren’t sending anyone (last mission to do so was a failure, most people are worried about the civil war and don’t believe in magical zombies), so he has to get the manpower from somewhere. He could hire mercenaries, but he doesn’t have the money (not until the guy from the Iron Bank comes at least). So he uses the wildlings instead. His plan to have all the Wall manned and people ready to defend it and warn of any wight and Other incursions is necessary to help defend the realms of men.
His mistakes start when he sends away his former friends, which would form his power base. He takes Maester Aemon’s advice and tries not to show favoritism (kill the boy), but doing so he makes himself vulnerable. He probably never thought about being betrayed and that he needed to keep a power base near him at all, believing that all people from the Night’s Watch would follow him without question. This probably comes from his upbringing, where he saw all the northmen follow Ned’s orders naturally. He should’ve learned from what happened to his brother at the Red Wedding, but then, not even having loyal followers near him helped Robb, it’s a wonder whether it’d have helped Jon here. But it’s important to have the people with weapons near you on your side in politics. Not doing so can result in a coup. If he had more allies or bodygyards, the plotters would at least need more people to overwhelm all of them and kill Jon. They’d be a little bit more cautious.
Another mistake was the second expedition to save Hardhome refugees. The first one is good, according to the logic of having less wights, but the second one has a very slim chance of success. He couldn’t have predicted that the first one would go wrong due to the distrust of the refugees (slavers had already taken some of them, so they distrust all boats, and probably would distrust Night Watch’s boats even more), but after Pyke’s letter he should’ve known that another rescue mission would have even less chance of success and more of a chance of fattening the Wight Army.
The biggest failure he has is in communication. A good leader not only decides what’s right, but he also communicates his strategy to his followers. Jon failed at that. His followers don’t get what he intends to at all, and he doesn’t convince them of the logic of his plan. This failure of communication leads the plotters to form a plan to kill him when he goes beyond what they consider acceptable (taking active part in the civil war).
I don’t think Martin is saying that all good honourable leaders are bad leaders. There are cases of terrible rulers who also suffer (like Cersei). The thing is, at critical times the leaders didn’t have what was required of them to avoid coups.
@@@@@15, 21: Catelyn didn’t survive, but she did come back, so I guess she counts? However, that was one example when the POV character was indeed killed.
But on the other hand, chapters many times ended with the POV character losing consciousness but later being shown to survive: IIRC,
AGOT: Bran, Ned also loses consciousness after being attacked by Jaime and his men
ACOK: Davos (at BW, reappears in the next book), Tyrion (though he is shown in a coma and waking up in the same book, just a few chapters later), Theon (only reappears 3 books later)
ASOS: Arya (I thought it was obvious Sandor was knocking her out to save her, but apparently many people fell for it…)
ADWD: Tyrion (again), Asha
@@@@@23: For starters, Jon is NOT a “terrible” leader. He’s young, inexperienced, a little too bold in his reforms and not well aware of the importance of what we now call PR (and it’s not like he had anyone to teach him), but he’s, frankly, one of the best leaders we’ve seen in ASOAIF’s current timeline. Though I’m sure you’d disagree if you’re one of those who think that Tywin is some kind of an example of a good leader (though I don’t know how anyone can defend that idea while also claiming that being assassinated because you pissed people off makes you a bad leader…), or that Dany was terrible for trying to abolish slavery and stop the Astapori slavers from killing babies and castrating and brainwashing young boys. You didn’t explain why Jon deserves to be called a “terrible” leader, and you didn’t explain which other people who are good have shown to be “terrible” leaders, nor did you offer any examples of terrible people who are “good” leaders (what would that mean? Is someone a good leader just because they manage to cling to power?!), so your conclusion is completely unsupported.
@@@@@51: You mean Arya/Jeyne. That’s a strange error to make. Sansa has absolutely nothing to do with this. She is far away hiding in the Vale as LF’s bastard daughter, has absolutely ntohing to do with Ramsay, let alone being his bride (which would be pretty illogical and weird, what with the fact she’s a) officially married to Tyrion, b) a fugitive wanted for regicide that would be immediately arrested if Lannisters and their allies like Boltons knew where she was, and c) nobody except her and Littlefinger and a few of LF’s men even know where she is).
@@@@@ 58 You must be one of those people who enjoy thinking they are so original for hating the Starks and writing posts in defense of Boltons. In that way, your post is quite amusing. Your reference to trying to save his sister from the forced marriage, continued rape and torture by her family’s killers as “kidnapping” is indeed as hilariously ironic as you probably knew it to be. About as hilarious as arguing in favor of peace with the Boltons. See, while I agree with Jon that the primary fight is with the Others (and he was 100% right to point out how nonsensical it was of Marsh and co. to claim that the sacred duty and oaths of the Watch were to fight the wildlings, when in fact their duty is to protect the realm of men, i.e. humans, which wildlings definitely are; not to nonsense the common sense conclusion that it’s better to make peace with the wildlings than to have them attack you in the form of undead servants of the Others intent on killing all in sight), I must say that, if it ever came down to Boltons vs Others, I’d much rather fall into the hands of the Others than the Boltons. The Boltons are there to show that humans can be, indeed, worse even than the ice monsters bent on the destruction of the human race. At least the Others will just kill you and, when they turn you into their braindead slave, you won’t be aware of anything; they aren’t sadistically obsessed with torture and pain. The Boltons, on the other hand…
The reference to Jon “breaking his oath” by involving himself in politics is also quite ironic, and I love the unironic use of the word “hypocritical” here, what with the fact that all the brothers of the NW are engaging in politics, to the point that they almost elected Janos Slynt LC just because he was backed by Tywin (who, unlike Stannis, didn’t do a damn thing to help the Watch); especially Marsh and co., whose real problem is really not that Jon is backing up one of the pretenders, but that’s the one he’s backing isn’t a Baranister (Marsh even openly said that upseting Tywin was what he was worried about). As for the “leaving the Wall vulnerable” argument, there’s the fact that, without Jon making peace with the wildlings, the Wall would have nothing but a handful of people to defend it in the first place. Especially if they decided to send Stannis on his way and support the Baranisters and Boltons instead – who have been doing squat to help the Night’s Watch.
Also… Cregan Karstark, a Bolton supporter? Didn’t you forget that he and his father Arnolf are officially supposed to be on Stannis’ side? The Boltons should be officially considering him a traitor. Or is Jon supposed to be worried he arrested a criminal (attempted kidnapping is a crime, you know) who happens to be the son of a Bolton spy?
Oh, and crossbows are a little bit harder to hide under your clothes than daggers, ya know.
@80: You seem to be confusing book and show ages of characters. Jon was 14 in AGOT, and it’s been about two years since, maybe a little more. He is 16, 17 at most at the end of ADWD.
@77 a1ay
I must admit this has me puzzled. If I suffer a wound that causes me to lose so much blood that I die, isn’t that a fatal wound? I mean, how else do you think people normally die from being stabbed, if not from blood loss?
I think the distinction he is making is that none of the stab wounds were fatal in and of themselves. As in each stab wound alone would have been survivable, not hitting vital organs or major blood vessels. Only the combined blood loss of all the technically minor wounds proved to be fatal.
I’m not going to comment on the merits, other than I’m in the Jon is a good leader but should have kept Ghost at his side camp. The For the Watch guys are, to a man, cowardly third raters afraid to do the things needed to save humanity from the Others and their armies of Wights.
One thing I want to note is that this chapter has the funniest inside joke of the entire series. Ser Patrek is named after Pat of Pat’s Fantasy Hot List. Pat, a Cowboys fan, won a bet with GRRM, a Giants fan, over a football game so GRRM agreed to kill Pat off in ADWD. Funny things to note include that Ser Patrek is a huge jerk, his sigil is a blue star, just like the Cowboys, and he is killed by a Giant. Hardee-har-har.
@53, 81 – yeah, I got kind of a chuckle at that. I figured it was a typo and switching up the sisters because it would make pretty much zero sense for Sansa to be married to Ramsay…
@83 A good comment as usual, and I agree that Jon was a good leader overall. Yet it is also true that his decision to send Mance to save Jeyne/Arya is what caused the Pink letter, and thus also his downfall. And it was easy to see from the beginning how that rescue mission could always backfire. So was Jon supposed to leave his sister in the hands of a rapist and a torturer for the good of the realm? That is what the NW oath requires, and that is what Jon failed to do.
And Jon’s decision about Hardhome was folly. :( I really hate to side with Selyse, but she was right – Jon had to let them die. Sending ships was probably justifiable, and could succeed with some more luck. But sending people over land, carrying enough supplies to feed thousands of wildlings, when winter had almost come, after Pyke’s expedition had reported “dead things in the woods, dead things in the water”, after the previous big ranging was wiped out almost entirely…
Don’t get me wrong, I think that Jon was a good leader, who did more to fortify the Wall against the Others then anyone else could – he led the defense of Castle Black against Mance back in ASOS, he made an alliance with Tormund that provided the Wall with thousands of defenders, he repaired and garrisoned previously abandoned castles, and much more. But he also overreached and took some really risky decisions, trying to achieve too many conflicting goals at once, failed to “kill the boy” as Aemon put it.
Ha-haha ha haaaaaaaaaaa ha! Ha-haha ha haaaaaaaaaa hah! neener neener neener!
You knew you could stop
with the series, dear leigh
But your interest’d been piqued
and you would not obey
the panicking voice of your best int’rest
telling you “Leigh dee bee, give it a rest!
you don’t deserve this, not a bit, not at all
the innocent tables stuck deep in the wall
did nothing to earn such poor treatment the weeks
that you read the red wedding, ned’s death, and bran’s fall,
why do this to you? it’s a live wire” it shreiks
But you continue to read, and your feels they bleed
because closure and endings are things that you need.
Here’s hoping that things get less awful from here
(although there’s not much that could be worse, I fear)
So as your rhyming commentor who’s no fan of this Song
I ask, will this be the day Leigh says, “so long
A pox on G. Martin, his books, and his brain
and a plague on the commentors enjoying my pain
(especially rhymers gimmicky and vain)!
A curse on the internet, blogs, and the web
drop the mike, I am out, exit leigh db”
All I can say is that if you didn’t have anger management issues before you read this series, there’s a 65 – 85% chance you will afterwards.
@88: The NW oath actually says nothing about rescuing girls from forced marriages to northern lords, nor about meddling in other affairs in the realm. It just says you’re not supposed to hold lands or titles ans father no children. Nevertheless, since the NW is supposed to act like it’s independent from the lords of the realm (even though it really is not*), I think Jon’s biggest mistake was reading the Pink Letter aloud and admitting that he knew about Mance being alive and that he did send him and the spearwives to rescue “Arya”. What he should have done: send them to rescue her, but never reveal it to the Night’s Watch. He should have just said that Ramsay Bolton was threatening to attack the Night’s Watch – without revealing anything about Mance or “Arya” – and that he was therefore simply defending the Watch by going south to deal with him.
Yes, I’m saying Jon should have lied, or at least continued to hide the truth. It’s an elementary skill for anyone who wants to be a successful political leader, even a “good” one. It’s a part of his general failure to pay attention to what we now call PR.
* let’s be honest, the Night’s Watch has never been independent, and has meddled in the affairs of the realm more than once. They’re just not supposed to openly admit that. They are very dependent on the kings and lords for support in men and provisions. The NW once – in the days of Stark kings – elected a 10 year old Stark boy Lord Commander. Clearly it was not because of his credentials, fighting ability and experience! The current NW almost elected Janos Slynt Lord Commander, someone with no credentials or experience at the Wall, because Tywin Lannister had written them a letter saying that they should do that and he would… perhaps be nice to the NW (without even a proper promise of giving them something in return). But they were never going to say out loud that this is why they were voting for Slynt. And in the current situation, with Stannis and his men at the Wall and providing help to them, they had no choice but to meddle in the politics of the realm, one way or another. Supporting Stannis or not supporting Stannis, either one is a political decision.
@@@@@ 83
You might think the Others are better than the Boltons, but most of the brothers of the Night’s Watch think differently.
I’m not saying Bowen Marsh is a saint, but he always had what was best for the Watch in mind. Plus, before backing Janos Slynt he declared his candidacy for Lord Commander, so he’s not just some Lannister puppet. BTW, getting men for the Wall doesn’t mean you can use them for your own personal feuds.
And whatever excuse Jon has for when the Bolton’s ask him for the Karstarks is going to be useless once Cregan tells them the truth.
I don’t think the stabbers cared much about secrecy when they sabbed Jon. They’re surrounded by brothers, wildlings and Stannis’ men. Bowen Marsh knows he’s probably going to die after that. Hence the tears.
@@@@@ 91
And why would the wildlings follow him to battle if not to rescue Mance?
The Nigth’s Watch would have found out sooner or later. Ramsay will have to send letters to the Northerners explaining the situation. The news would have reached the Shadow Tower or Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, where the castellan is a Thorne loyalist, and he would have explained it to Bowen Marsh and his friends.
Let’s be honest. There was no way Jon’s ragtag army of wildlings would have beaten the Northeners under the Boltons. And even if by some miracle they had, they would have to face the Lannisters. And meanwhile the Others would take advantage of the situation to attack the unguarded Wall.
@83: Yes, I think the Boltons are worse even than the Others. But that was just my point about how awful the Boltons are. Fortunately, Jon was not making a choice between the Boltons and the Others. He made a choice between waging war on dozens of thousands of wildlings with a small bunch of men, and then having them come back and attack them as wights, and making peace with the wildlings and using them to help defend the Wall from the Others. The Boltons (and the Lannister) have done squat to help the Night’s Watch against the Others – or the wildlings, for that matter.
What Bowen Marsh thinks is best for the Night’s Watch may not be what’s actually best for the Night’s Watch.
The secrecy was in the fact that, if you are going to assassinate someone, he and others who aren’t on your side are going to notice it straight away if you’re coming at him with crossbows, and you won’t get the chance to come near. So they weren’t in the position to carry with them those crossbows that you think they could have used against Ghost.
“BTW, getting men for the Wall doesn’t mean you can use them for your own personal feuds.”
He wasn’t – he was using Mance and the spearwives, and none of them are in the NW. Once Ramsay threatened to attack the Night’s Watch, it stopped being Jon’s personal feud.
“And whatever excuse Jon has for when the Bolton’s ask him for the Karstarks is going to be useless once Cregan tells them the truth.”
Why would he need to give them any “excuse”? What’s the Boltons’ business with the Karstarks, anyway? Are they their personal property or something? Heck, they weren’t even supposed to be supporting the Boltons, Arnolf is officially with Stannis.
“The Night’s Watch would have found out sooner or later.”
So what? The point is that they don’t get the chance to assassinate him before he even gets the chance to deal with the problem.
“Ramsay will have to send letters to the Northerners explaining the situation.”
I’d love to read those letters by Ramsay “explaining the situation”. I can just imagine how that would make him even more popular with the Northerners.
“There was no way Jon’s ragtag army of wildlings would have beaten the Northeners under the Boltons.”
Because the Boltons have a numerous and incredibly disciplined army under a celebrated military commander, and don’t have to deal with the fact that most Northerners hate them and would use the first chance to kill them? Let’s be really honest, the only people the Boltons can really count on are the tiny bunch of their own men, and an occasional opportunist who has a specific goal, like Arnolf Karstark… if they even have him now…
And that’s just in case that Ramsay is not lying and that, by some miracle, he has actually managed to beat Stannis.
“And even if by some miracle they had, they would have to face the Lannisters.”
What Lannisters? There is no Lannister army up in the North.
And let’s be honest, there is unlikely to ever be a Lannister army up in the North. Especially now, when winter has come, and the Lannisters so much other trouble to deal with in King’s Landing.
“And meanwhile the Others would take advantage of the situation to attack the unguarded Wall. “
Wait a moment. So now you’re saying that the NW brothers at the Wall are insufficient to guard the Wall, and that they need every wildling to defend it as well? I thought you were arguing that making peace with the wildlings was wrong?
Naturally, the Others would have to find a way to bring the Wall down first. Since they can’t pass through or over it.
@91 Reading the pink letter and announcing his decision openly was madness. But honestly Jon doesn’t have any good options in case of a Bolton victory over Stannis. If Stannis wins that would only mean that Jon gambled and was lucky. If Boltons defeat Stannis, as the Pink Letter sais (and Jon seems to believe that it) then hiding the truth from the NW will accomplish nothing, only delay the inevitable. Because what hope does Jon have to defeat a 5000 strong host with several hundred poorly equipped wildlings?
Don’t get me wrong, I want Roose and Ramsay to die screaming as much as anyone. And I actually agree that they are even worse then the Others in some way. But Boltons ruling the North won’t mean that the world will end. The Others breaching the Wall might mean just that. Jon’s task as Lord Commander is to protect the world from the ultimate threat to humanity, but he abandons this task in favor of a desperate and reckless attempt to save his sister. That is the tragedy – that good people, even heroes, such as Ned, Robb, Catelyn and Jon sometimes make bad decisions for understandable, sympathetic reasons. Its not just about bad PR.
@@@@@ 93 I never said that making peace with the wildlings was a mistake. I only said that Jon was a hypocrite for refusing to make peace with the Boltons as well.
“What Bowen Marsh thinks is best for the Night’s Watch may not be what’s actually best for the Night’s Watch.”
I know. Regarding the wildlings, he may be wrong. But he seemed fine with it once Jon promised to keep hostages and not let the wildlings south. He may not have liked it, but he wasn’t going to stab him for it.
“if you are going to assassinate someone, he and others who aren’t on your side are going to notice it straight away if you’re coming at him with crossbows, and you won’t get the chance to come near”
The benefit of crossbows is that you don’t need to get near someone to kill him.
“he was using Mance and the spearwives, and none of them are in the NW. Once Ramsay threatened to attack the Night’s Watch, it stopped being Jon’s personal feud.”
Mance and the spearwives are still part of the “men he got for the Wall” (BTW, I’ve realised it’s a bit sexist to say “men” when 6 out of 7 are women XD). And Ramsay didn’t threaten the Wall. He just said “Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.”
In fact, Jon never thinks of Ramsay as a threat to the Watch. He just thinks he’s evil and deserves to die:
“I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …“
“This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words“
“What’s the Boltons’ business with the Karstarks?”
The whole “betray Stannis, marry Alys, kill Harry” business. As soon as Bolton finds out Jon married a valuable noble girl without his permission and that he warned Stannis, he’s going to want his head. What Jon should have done, IMO, is warn Stannis (without anyone knowing), keep Alys and have Cregan and his men wait till the Northern business was resolved (he can’t ask Jon to give him his wife, because then he’d have to admit his father’s deal with the Boltons).
“I’d love to read those letters by Ramsay “explaining the situation”. I can just imagine how that would make him even more popular with the Northerners.”
Explaining that he defeated Stannis, the man with the most powerful non-Bolton army? Explaining that Jon allied himseld with Mance Rayder to abduct his wife?
“most Northerners hate them and would use the first chance to kill them”
The same could be said about Jon’s wildlings. And Roose has 3,500 men under his direct command, more than all the Northern Houses combined. Not to mention his Dustin and Ryswell allies. Not exactly a “tiny bunch”.There are only five thousand wildlings in the Gift at this point. Not all of them are warriors, and not all the warriors would fight for Jon (who even tries to sends some to Hardhome).
“And that’s just in case that Ramsay is not lying and that, by some miracle, he has actually managed to beat Stannis.”
Jon seems to think that’s the case. The other brothers have no reason to think otherwise.
“There is no Lannister army up in the North.”
Until they send one to deal with Jon. The Tyrells have more than enough men, and the Crown can always send the Vale army. Plus, the Lannisters can harm the Watch by other means, like forbidding the other Houses from selling crops or giving men to the Watch.
@@@@@ 95
I disagree with this. I see this argument all the time but let’s look at a couple of things. First, Ghost was freaking the fuck out before Jon got the Pink Letter. Also, Bowen Marsh had already accused Jon of treason before the Pink Letter arrived. So I believe that the conspirators were already planning to assassinate Jon before he got the Pink Letter. IMO the only effect the letter had on the assassination was to lead the conspirators to believe that they had to do it right then.
@@@@@ 94
But Jon didn’t abandon the wall to save his sister, that’s why he sent Mance, so he could stay and do his job. Once Ramsey sends the Pink Letter it becomes about a whole lot more than saving Arya. Hell, the letter itself says that Ramsey doesn’t have Arya so the attack on WF really has nothing to do with saving her.
I can’t help but wondering whether we have reached the defining moment of the series. If Jon is really dead, we have a chaotic deconstruction of the fantasy trope. If he is revived intact by magic, I think we have a traditional fantasy with Jon as hero, that has been hidden by grrm behind a fake deconstruction of the normal rules of fantasy.
The NW oath actually says nothing about rescuing girls from forced marriages to northern lords, nor about meddling in other affairs in the realm. It just says you’re not supposed to hold lands or titles ans father no children.
And, in fact, the NW collectively is a northern lord. It owns a huge chunk of land to the south of the Wall – the Gift – and presumably has all the powers over its inhabitants that the Lord of Winterfell has over people elsewhere in the North, or the ruler of Highgarden has over people in the Reach. That doesn’t come up much in the books because the Gift is supposed to be more or less uninhabited, but still: if you are within thirty leagues of the Wall, you are in Watch territory.
Ooh, I just thought of another possible scenario…
Mel naturally insists on burning Jon’s body, and Jon is reborn in the flames, to Mel’s surprise, because it’s not anything she intended or did, but simply because Jon is AA. Maybe he comes out as a fire elemental or something equally epic and yet sad because he’ll be badass but he’ll never have a normal life.
It could happen.
I’ve got to disagree with the argument that a threat to “cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it” is just a threat to Jon personally. He’d the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. Does Ramsay think the Watch is going to loiter in the courtyard of Castle Black while his men assault it to get to Jon? Does anyone think he expects that? Of course not. He’s explicitly threatening to wipe out the entire garrison and assassinate the Watch’s Commander.
Jon knows that he can never ask the Black Brothers to march on Winterfell. Regardless of how right he is, it’s drilled into their heads from Day One that the Watch Takes No Part. He’d never get their support for a direct assault. So he recruits the Wildlings instead. I agree with billiam that all this really did is accelerate the assassination plot that was already in place. Marsh had already said that he considered arming the Wildlings to be treason. That was the moment that he decided Jon had to be killed.
To Red Harren @92, I don’t think that Marsh expects to die. He’s crying because he’s murdering one of the his Brothers, the Lord Commander. The fact that he thinks it’s the right thing to do doesn’t mean he enjoys it. Like Brutus after the assassination of Julius Caesar, he probably expects to be put into power after he’s disposed of the tyrant. He’s probably right in the short-term. Marsh probably has enough support lined up to be voted the 999th Lord Commander. He’ll be the guy who’s running the show when the Others come rolling over the Wall. The question that interests me is: Who is going to replace Marsh after he’s died screaming when the world is (presumably) saved and the story is done? Who will be the 1000th Commander of the Night’s Watch?
@100 – Re your last sentence, I’m laying odds on Samwell Tarley.
@101. There’s definitely something to be said for Sam, but if he succeeds in becoming a Maester, he probably is disqualified from command, like Aemon was. My favorite candidate for LC #1000 is Stannis.
OTOH, events are accelerating now so it seems unlikely that Sam is going to forge his chain before events are resolved.
@97 Browniesbane
Or he comes back UnCat style and kills everyone. Which still makes him the hero for ending all this misery, but that counts at least as a subversion of the classic trope…
Regarding unJon, I think that’s what happens when he comes back
“Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Savaged limbs clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. On a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.”
@104, Except we’ve already seen a feast where a king with an iron crown was killed and a wolf’s head sewn to his body.
The 1000th Lord Commander? Come on, that’s been set up since book 1, it’s so obvious:
Dolorous Ed.
@43, @86 One more insider trivia re the football bet and Ser Patrek: Ser P is not killed by just any giant. The giant’s short name is “Wun-wun”. Wun-wun = one-one = 11. #11 = Phil Simms’ jersey number for the NY Giants, the team on which he played QB for his entire career.
@106 The idea of Dolorous Edd actually being voted as the 1000th LC is so perfect, I almost resisted reminding you that he doesn’t show up until Book 2, as part of the Great Ranging north of the Wall.
100, 106, 108
Could GRRM be so cruel (to Sam) as to make Randyll Tarly number 1000
@108
No. I think Randyll Tarly will be no such thing. He’ll stay in the center of the political and military shenanigans down South until they’re over. I believe he’ll weather the political chaos and come out the other side with his head and title both still in his possession and no need to take the Black to save his head.
Also, I think people have a basic misunderstanding of GRRM when they talk about how cruel he is. The book series is only about two thirds done. Things look bad now, because things usually look bad for the good guys this far into a story. Plus, his writing style is to exaggerate the lows so that the highs are more appreciated…and we do get those moments occasionally. Robb being proclaimed King in the North. The birth of the dragons. The troops cheering Tyrion with “Half-Man!” during the Battle of the Blackwater. Jon’s election as Lord Commander. My personal favorite occurs in The Hedge Knight when Dunk, despairing of finding a sixth knight to fight with him cries out, “Are there no true knights among you?!”…and Baelor Breakspear comes riding out to answer the call. I choke up every time.
I’ll admit that some of the people that I mention above ultimately come to a bad end. I have two things to say to that. 1) That doesn’t change that they had some amazing uplifting moments. and 2) even more importantly, there can’t be any happy endings for a main character yet, because the story’s not over. If any of the main characters gets a happy ending, then they stop being someone that it’s interesting to read about. Bronn pretty much gets his happy ending, effectively the Lord of the castle he’s living in. We don’t hear much about him anymore.
@83, I am “one of those who think that Tywin is some kind of an example of a good leader” (30 years of peace and prosperity) and “that Dany was terrible” (war, famine, plague and death). However, I don’t think Jon is a bad leader/ruler. In fact, I think he a little unbelievable because he is so good at such a young age.
However, I do think he was making a terrible mistake at the end. It’s a terrible precedent to make regardless whether his force represent the NW or not. He is the freaking lord commander, not some common soldier. I am also not sure what’s his plan anyway. If Stannis couldn’t win against Bolton with 5000 soldiers, how could he with a token force? It just doesn’t make any sense.
I agree with y’all that Jon will spend some quality time warging Ghost, but I don think he’s dead(more like wishful thinking, I’ll give you that), and hope he will be cured by Val rather than Mel. Don’t forget, Jon is from the Old Gods, and IIRC Val’s supposed to be a wildling sorceress.
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About Bowen Marsh, I dont know how he expects to survive the ensuing chaos that will befall Castle Black when the Night Watch is clearly outnumbered, even with help from the Queen’s men. And the freefolk besides having more numbers, they a giant and a monstrous boar at their side. Also, I expect Ghost won’t be long to join the fray
Oh, Leigh. I’ve been, uh, non-eagerly awaiting you getting to this chapter. Each week, I wasn’t sure if this would be the week, because I’m too lazy to open up a book and see when it happened.
You poor dear. Now you’re pretty well caught up to the rest of the world in goings-on. I’m amazed you’ve been able to avoid spoilers about this, as it happened in the show in this last season, and the internet pretty much exploded with rage and angst.
I can only offer the sympathy of one who has gone through this. :hugs:
@112, That’s an interesting thought.
@105: Robb’s crown wasn’t iron, he didn’t preside over the RW, Grey Wind’s eyes have no reason to follow Dany, and I don’t see why Dany would be given a vision of the RW at the undying, they are showing things that are related to her and her future, which the RW isn’t.
You could be right, of course, but I’ll wait and see.
Can’t remember how to put that link in spoilers, so anyway I haven’t checked if there is content from past this point in ADwD on the thread, go at your own risk =) :
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/63754-hotu-showed-the-red-wedding-or-did-it/
What’s interesting – unlike the TV series, here stabbing takes place in public. So how come Jon was stabbed 3-4 times when after the 1st someone would come? Or was he surrounded by traitors so no one else would notice anything? Wun Wun killing Val’s future husband – did dude go to steal her or was he a needed sacrifice for a diversion to be created and succeed in killing? How much time passed since Marsh leaving Shield councel and diversion taking place? I mean – was Jon anyway going to die that day or pretty soon with or without that councel?
And what’s with wound smoking? Is it natural thing?
@George, given the cold of the northlands the smoking of the wound probably is natural, just like your breath smokes when it’s cold enough. Blood is a lot warmer than the air.
If Ramsay has killed Stannis and most of his army why doesn’t he have Theon/Reek back? Or at least his body? And why does he think Jon has Arya? No way Jeyne could have got there already!